Open Question For Law Enforcement Officers

[HBarlow]

I occasionally browse the forum on the unmentionable motorcycle website. I just read a new thread with a long list of added comments regarding the subject of concealed carry when traveling on a motorcycle.

One of the members who I know from the forums as a reasonable, thoughtful, and knowledgeable member of law enforcement wrote an interesting paragraph in the thread. He stated that if you have a concealed carry permit and are carrying through a state that does not recognize your carry permit you should remove the clip from the gun and store the two items in separate saddlebags thereby changing your status from "carrying" to "transporting."

(I'm paraphrasing his words as I remember them so these may not be precisely his words or meaning)

He further stated that if pulled over by a leo the citizen transporting a weapon should refuse the leo permission to search. He continued by stating that without permission to search the officer should not search your GW unless he has probably cause.

Those who have a concealed carry permit are aware of the obligation to inform a leo of your concealed carry permit if the officer has reason to ask for your driver's license and registration.

My question: If transporting an unloaded weapon through a state which does not recognize a rider's concealed carry permit it seems to me a concealed carry permit holder still has that obligation to inform an leo by handing over the concealed carry permit with the driver's license and registration if requested. That usually results in the officer asking, "are you carrying" or words to that effect.

I believe the computer in the leo's car or his dispatcher's computer will reveal possession of a concealed carry permit along with drivers license and registration information. Is that correct?

How should the citizen respond? Lying to the officer is never a good idea. If the citizen denies carrying or transporting and the police computer reveals a carry permit does the officer then have probable cause to search?

If the citizen hands over his concealed carry permit and advises the officer he is transporting an unloaded weapon in a locked storage compartment is he in violation of the law in anti-gun states or states that do not recognize his license to carry?

Your advice will be appreciated.

[Haste Maker]

I read the same post over there...my first thought was...not a good idea to post that you carry a firearm on an open forum...

[jmohme]

I read that post to, and You are asking some really good questions, especially about probable cause.
As far as transport vs concealed carry, I would want to check the specific laws in the state that I was traveling through before assuming that just storing the magazine in a different compartment than the handgun would be sufficient.

I am not in law enforcement, but, If I recall correctly, those steps would not do by Illinois laws. Again, if my memory is correct, in that state, the handgun had to be broken down with both the stripped gun and ammo stored in separate non accessible locations. I also seem to recall that there were more issues when it came to crossing the state line. But it has been 25 years since I had to deal with the insane laws of that state.

[orangecrate]

Don't think you need to be in law enforcement to answer all questions. For instance, in Ohio where I live one is required to tell the cop you are armed, not so in all states. It is best to check states you will be traveling through since unfortunately laws vary from state to state. Even laws transporting a weapon vary state to state. I personally, would not agree to a search of my bike or person. Of course I would not give reason to either. Finally, the laws are written in each state so the people who have a CCW permit can understand them.

[pearlblue1800]

Is a firearm no longer a firearm because it does not have ammunition in it? It can not fire.

No

Just as a motorcycle is still a motorcycle, even though it does not have gasoline in it's fuel tank? It can not run.


Any Police officer may ask you anything he/she wants to, it is common practice for them to do just that. A question or request is not a legal 'Demand".

Just as you may ask the Police Officer anything that you want.
eg: Officer may I search the Police vehicle? Of course he most often would deny you permission. However he may not. Who knows what interesting treasures you may locate.

It is a mere request. If you comply it is voluntary.
If any evidence of pertaining to any 'crime' is found, you have little defense, as you consented to what otherwise would be an illegal search..

It is common practice for Police to go on 'fishing expedition's'. The more you talk, the longer you talk the better evidence you provide to them.

You are NOT obliged to answer anything other than to provide verification of your identity.
Verification the vehicle is properly insured, and registered.

You are NOT doing yourself any favours by answering any questions. No matter how innocuous you may believe those questions to be.

If the officer had any grounds to search he would NOT be asking permission to do so.

[flyerq68]

While I know some states require you notify the LEO that you are carrying, this is not the case in California. I know that sounds strange since Cali is very strict regarding firearms, but you are under no obligation to out yourself. Now, I was told buy my IA that if during the commission of his normal duties that there was a chance you would be discovered, it is best for everyone's safety to inform him in advance.

[Bucfan11]

While I know some states require you notify the LEO that you are carrying, this is not the case in California. I know that sounds strange since Cali is very strict regarding firearms, but you are under no obligation to out yourself. Now, I was told buy my IA that if during the commission of his normal duties that there was a chance you would be discovered, it is best for everyone's safety to inform him in advance.

Are you sure they are "required" to tell them? I thought in some states it was strongly suggested but not required.

[flyerq68]

No I am not sure, after checking a few random state laws, can't seem to find any. They all say must inform if asked. This is good because I hate to keep track of so many different laws from state to state.

[hparsons]

In Texas, if you are a CHL holder, and have a handgun "on or about your person", you must inform the officer that you're a CHL holder, and present the license.

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE
If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder’s person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder’s driver’s license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder’s handgun license

[Lone Ranger]

In Illinois a resident with a CCW is not required to tell and if a resident does not have a CCW but has a FOID the resident is obligated to carry as any other weapon in transport. Illinois doesn't recognize other CCW from other states, unless you pay the $300 and your state has a similar CCW law as Illinois.

If you are wise, you will have already checked on the states you are passing thru concerning CCW and had taken appropriate action to be within the scope of each state's laws.

Storing the bullets and firearm in separate locations indicates your willingness to go the extra step, but not necessary in Illinois.


From the ISP website: http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

How do I legally transport a firearm on my person or in my vehicle?
In order to comply with the Criminal Code, the Wildlife Code, and the Firearm Owner’s Identification Act, when transporting a firearm, it must be:

1. broken down in a non-functioning state; or
2. not immediately accessible; or
3. unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner’s Identification Card.

Is it legal to have ammunition in the case with the firearm?
Yes, so long as the firearm is unloaded and properly enclosed in a case.


I have a "conceal and carry" permit issued by another state. Is the permit recognized in Illinois?
No. Illinois does not recognize “conceal and carry” permits from any state. Both non-residents and residents are subject to Illinois’ law, restrictions, and penalties. For a list of other commonly asked questions on transporting firearms in Illinois, please refer to the Transport Your Firearm Legally brochure available on our website.


How do I transport a firearm through an Illinois community with an ordinance that prohibits firearms or handguns?
Illinois' Unlawful Use of Weapons law does not preempt local ordinances from banning firearms. Persons carrying or transporting firearms through such communities could be subject to local firearm ordinances. It is recommended that you contact local authorities regarding their firearm ordinances.

Remember,it is up to you to actually read the law of the states you will be passing thru concerning firearm transportation for factual information.

[Lone Ranger]

One of the members who I know from the forums as a reasonable, thoughtful, and knowledgeable member of law enforcement wrote an interesting paragraph in the thread. He stated that if you have a concealed carry permit and are carrying through a state that does not recognize your carry permit you should remove the clip from the gun and store the two items in separate saddlebags thereby changing your status from "carrying" to "transporting."

Separating bullets from ammo and does two things: 1 shows your willingness to transport the weapon in a non-functioning firing state and 2. your inability to easily access the weapon and ammo. Doing so this way there is no gray area of interpretation.

(I'm paraphrasing his words as I remember them so these may not be precisely his words or meaning)

He further stated that if pulled over by a leo the citizen transporting a weapon should refuse the leo permission to search.

You have to give consent to normally search a vehicle. And yes you have the right to refuse a request to search the vehicle.

He continued by stating that without permission to search the officer should not search your GW unless he has probably cause.

Well that is if you are alone! Your wife could give her permission to search, so don't be arguing with the wife.

Those who have a concealed carry permit are aware of the obligation to inform a leo of your concealed carry permit if the officer has reason to ask for your driver's license and registration.

My question: If transporting an unloaded weapon through a state which does not recognize a rider's concealed carry permit it seems to me a concealed carry permit holder still has that obligation to inform an leo by handing over the concealed carry permit with the driver's license and registration if requested. That usually results in the officer asking, "are you carrying" or words to that effect.

There is no requirement to inform a LEO in Illinois, but if asked you have to tell.

I believe the computer in the leo's car or his dispatcher's computer will reveal possession of a concealed carry permit along with drivers license and registration information. Is that correct?

In Illinois it is suppose to, if the computers are up.

How should the citizen respond?

Lying to the officer is never a good idea.

Deception is never a good idea.


If the citizen denies carrying or transporting and the police computer reveals a carry permit does the officer then have probable cause to search?

No, at least in Illinois. But each state is different as to informing a LEO. Be prepared to be asked questions if this comes up.


If the citizen hands over his concealed carry permit and advises the officer he is transporting an unloaded weapon in a locked storage compartment is he in violation of the law in anti-gun states or

In Illinois no. However New York and DC are strange places.


states that do not recognize his license to carry?

Look up and follow the laws of the states that do not honor your CCW is the simplest answer.


Your advice will be appreciated.

Hope this helps per your exact questions.

[HBarlow]

Hope this helps per your exact questions.

Yes, it does help. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for providing detailed answers to my questions.

My understanding of the answers received so far is that unloading a weapon and carrying clip (or individual bullets in the case of a revolver) in a different locked compartment than the gun when traveling through non-reciprocal states shows intent to comply with the law to a reasonable leo and is probably good enough to avoid being detained or even arrested.

I don't plan to ride through NYC or DC so that's not a concern.

I believe Texas requires CHL holders to notify but personally I think it is more courteous and wise to simply inform an officer if DL is requested than cause him to be surprised to discover that fact when he enters personal info in his computer. If I were the leo I would prefer to be informed. Once an leo knows a citizen is carrying he has the right to demand surrender of a weapon for safeguard while he is in contact.

[Lone Ranger]

Yes, it does help. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for providing detailed answers to my questions.

My understanding of the answers received so far is that unloading a weapon and carrying clip (or individual bullets in the case of a revolver) in a different locked compartment than the gun when traveling through non-reciprocal states shows intent to comply with the law to a reasonable leo and is probably good enough to avoid being detained or even arrested.

I don't plan to ride through NYC or DC so that's not a concern.

I believe Texas requires CHL holders to notify but personally I think it is more courteous and wise to simply inform an officer if DL is requested than cause him to be surprised to discover that fact when he enters personal info in his computer. If I were the leo I would prefer to be informed. Once an leo knows a citizen is carrying he has the right to demand surrender of a weapon for safeguard while he is in contact.

Here is further info regarding Illinois, this might or not apply to other states that do not recognize your CHL/CCW:

(430 ILCS 66/10)

(h) If an officer of a law enforcement agency initiates an investigative stop, including but not limited to a traffic stop, of a licensee or a non-resident carrying a concealed firearm under subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act, upon the request of the officer the licensee or non-resident shall disclose to the officer that he or she is in possession of a concealed firearm under this Act, present the license upon the request of the officer if he or she is a licensee or present upon the request of the officer evidence under paragraph (2) of subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act that he or she is a non-resident qualified to carry under that subsection, and identify the location of the concealed firearm. During a traffic stop, any passenger within the vehicle who is a licensee or a non-resident carrying under subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act must comply with the requirements of this subsection (h).

AND

(430 ILCS 66/40)
Sec. 40. Non-resident license applications.
(e) Nothing in this Act shall prohibit a non-resident from transporting a concealed firearm within his or her vehicle in Illinois, if the concealed firearm remains within his or her vehicle and the non-resident:
(1) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under federal law;
(2) is eligible to carry a firearm in public under the laws of his or her state or territory of residence, as evidenced by the possession of a concealed carry license or permit issued by his or her state of residence, if applicable; and
(3) is not in possession of a license under this Act.
If the non-resident leaves his or her vehicle unattended, he or she shall store the firearm within a locked vehicle or locked container within the vehicle in accordance with subsection (b) of Section 65 of this Act.
(Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13; 98-600, eff. 12-6-13.)
(430 ILCS 66/10)

[clayusmcret]

I found it simplest, and most enjoyable to simply bypass Illinois altogether. We went the U.P. route and went around it. Added almost no time to our route (if at all).

[HBarlow]

Here is further info regarding Illinois, this might or not apply to other states that do not recognize your CHL/CCW:

(430 ILCS 66/10)

(h) If an officer of a law enforcement agency initiates an investigative stop, including but not limited to a traffic stop, of a licensee or a non-resident carrying a concealed firearm under subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act, upon the request of the officer the licensee or non-resident shall disclose to the officer that he or she is in possession of a concealed firearm under this Act, present the license upon the request of the officer if he or she is a licensee or present upon the request of the officer evidence under paragraph (2) of subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act that he or she is a non-resident qualified to carry under that subsection, and identify the location of the concealed firearm. During a traffic stop, any passenger within the vehicle who is a licensee or a non-resident carrying under subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act must comply with the requirements of this subsection (h).

AND

(430 ILCS 66/40)
Sec. 40. Non-resident license applications.
(e) Nothing in this Act shall prohibit a non-resident from transporting a concealed firearm within his or her vehicle in Illinois, if the concealed firearm remains within his or her vehicle and the non-resident:
(1) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under federal law;
(2) is eligible to carry a firearm in public under the laws of his or her state or territory of residence, as evidenced by the possession of a concealed carry license or permit issued by his or her state of residence, if applicable; and
(3) is not in possession of a license under this Act.
If the non-resident leaves his or her vehicle unattended, he or she shall store the firearm within a locked vehicle or locked container within the vehicle in accordance with subsection (b) of Section 65 of this Act.
(Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13; 98-600, eff. 12-6-13.)
(430 ILCS 66/10)

Lone Ranger,

Thanks for that also. I'm pleasantly surprised. I think of IL as one of the "gun-unfriendly" states but that statute actually sounds friendlier and more reasonable than I assumed.

[harvey]

As a retired LEO, I guess I don't worry too much about carrying concealed, I just follow federal and state laws.

But what I really do wonder is how often is a Gold Wing Ride isr actually stopped by an officer. I know that I have no form of FOP or other law enforcement identifying patch or pin on my bike or riding gear and I have been riding a large touring bike since 1988 (two Ventures and two Gold Wings) and I have yet to be stopped. Yes I ride too fast and have been stopped in my car but never on the bike. And in all the miles I have ridden, I have not seen many Wings stopped along the road by an officer. I have been through a number of road checks and usually just get waved along but most of them are local anyway.

[HBarlow]

I've never been stopped on my Goldwing either in 93,xxx miles traveling all 48 and Canada but I was pulled over by a Texas DPS officer once on the ST1300 I owned for six months before buying the Wing. I was traveling through the Texas Hill Country with no cruise control and allowed my speed to climb briefly as I topped a low hill and met him. He examined my licenses and registration, ran me through his car computer or dispatcher, warned me politely, and I was on my way. I was courteous to him and he responded in kind. A good man just doing his job.

As you stated, LEOs generally don't bother us. They probably know we're mostly a bunch of old men who just like to ride and tour on our Goldwings.

[silent67]

I found it simplest, and most enjoyable to simply bypass Illinois altogether. We went the U.P. route and went around it. Added almost no time to our route (if at all).

I agree with this idea, it is what I would do with any state with strange gun laws if i happened to be transporting or carrying. It would not be worth the worry, I would spend my money somewhere else.

[hparsons]

...
How should the citizen respond? Lying to the officer is never a good idea. If the citizen denies carrying or transporting and the police computer reveals a carry permit does the officer then have probable cause to search?

If the citizen hands over his concealed carry permit and advises the officer he is transporting an unloaded weapon in a locked storage compartment is he in violation of the law in anti-gun states or states that do not recognize his license to carry?

Your advice will be appreciated.

I'm not a LEO, and this is just my opinion; but why would a CHL holder feel compelled to offer the information that he is transporting an unloaded weapon? Texas law only requires identification as a CHL holder if the gun is "on or about the license holder's person". Even then, technically, you don't have to say you have a handgun, you only are required to display your CHL.

That said, if I'm stopped by a policeman, I always leave my hands on the handlebars or steering wheel, wait until he approaches me, and immediately tell him I'm a CHL holder, and tell him whether or not I'm currently armed. If my gun was in the saddlebag or the trunk, out of my immediate reach, I wouldn't feel compelled to say so, and probably wouldn't.

[flyerq68]

I agree with Mr. Parsons, NEVER answer the questions they DON"T ask.

[azsandrider]

In Az, the law requires a person to disclose whether he is carrying a firearm when contacted by a LEO. If you don't disclose it and later a firearm is discovered, you can be in violation of the law. In Az, if you are a CCW permit holder, that info will come up when your info is run in the computer.

NEVER lie to a LEO, we HATE that! And we ask question in ways to determine if you are lying, we get training in that. If a person lies about one thing then its assumed he lies about everything and there is no more trust, meaning giving a break.

Being honest up front is the best policy.

[flyerq68]

In Az, the law requires a person to disclose whether he is carrying a firearm when contacted by a LEO. If you don't disclose it and later a firearm is discovered, you can be in violation of the law. In Az, if you are a CCW permit holder, that info will come up when your info is run in the computer.

NEVER lie to a LEO, we HATE that! And we ask question in ways to determine if you are lying, we get training in that. If a person lies about one thing then its assumed he lies about everything and there is no more trust, meaning giving a break.

Being honest up front is the best policy.

I think it is a fine point but if asked then yes don't lie. Volunteering info without being asked is different. I don't see AZ on the map as must inform.
I would assume because carry laws are very permissive in Arizona, all LEO contact would result in the first question asked is if there are any dangerous weapons in the vehicle he should know about.

[hparsons]

It's also probably worth noting that some of us may be using different meanings for "carrying". Texas' law specifically says "on or about your person". If it's within reach, you're carrying. If it's in your trunk or a saddlebag, you're under no obligation to tell. I wouldn't lie to a cop under any condition; but if I had a gun locked away out of my reach, I wouldn't offer the information unless asked.

[Lone Ranger]

I think it is a fine point but if asked then yes don't lie. Volunteering info without being asked is different. I don't see AZ on the map as must inform.
I would assume because carry laws are very permissive in Arizona, all LEO contact would result in the question being asked of everyone.

I don't know what year your map is but it is outdated as far as representing Illinois as a non-carry state. Illinois is a CCW state and if you go to page one and review my posts you will see info that I posted, hoping to better serve the OP and others if coming into Illinois.